Moggy posted a story about reconstruction of a big WWII glider, the Horsa, and glider pilots on his "Debriefing" section.
Shreck---Wasn't it you who had a nice layout of gliders for Normandy?
Or was it someone else?
Now, flying a glider would make a great mission, wouldn't it?
Glider Flight Mission II
Moderator: rotton50
Hi Woody 
hope your doing well!!
yes,I have the glider 3DZ in place of a few of the tree 3DZs,hence how I was able to have a slew of them "on the ground"
and,seeing as we have the 3DZ,all we need is a cockpit,and a tow plane(see simhq archives for thoughts on how to make it work)and a "launch mechanism"......perhaps it can be done,brighter minds than mine will have the final word(what say you Sirs Moggy ,Pobs,and Col.G???)
anyway,whatever I have,you are more than welcome too,let me know!
S!.....Shreck
hope your doing well!!
yes,I have the glider 3DZ in place of a few of the tree 3DZs,hence how I was able to have a slew of them "on the ground"
and,seeing as we have the 3DZ,all we need is a cockpit,and a tow plane(see simhq archives for thoughts on how to make it work)and a "launch mechanism"......perhaps it can be done,brighter minds than mine will have the final word(what say you Sirs Moggy ,Pobs,and Col.G???)
anyway,whatever I have,you are more than welcome too,let me know!
S!.....Shreck
"Ask not what you can do for your country,ask,what has your country been doing to you!"
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VonBeerhofen
I've been trying to use the Horsa for 2 years now in Market Garden as basically the mod would stand or fall with being able to use them as they are. Not something you fire like a rocket or something which drops like a bomb. Recent discoveries suggest that there is a way to control the flight model of ordnance as this is the only way to make it look real.
As far as i remember, someone changed the behaviour of parachutists recently (Rotton?) which were dropped as ordnance. Both mods are vital for a reasonable display of Market Garden and some other operations.
Past fun addons have shown that the only problem with attaching a glider is that they will remain in a straight line with the aircraft it is attached to, so it's behaviour isn't very realistic when attached as ordnance, however just like the parachutists it does work and the glider can be released by means of the release bomb mechanism.
A glider mod isn't or shouldn't be based on trying to land it I think as it's even harder to have planes continue their route after you as a glider pilot were dropped. Focus should be on having missions where you as a tow plane come under attack of fighters.
Comparable missions would be food droppings in the winter of 43 and 44, or supply drops. The last thing we want is our parcels to blow up when touching the ground which I think shouldn't be too hard when editing the blast of the ordnance used (think Rotton did that allready too).
Not sure though if the community would be interested in doing bombdrops with 3DZ's which have food parcels on them as basically it's no different from dropping bombs, nor is releasing gliders.
A challenge could be if for instance a glider's landing impact would cause it to explode or not, i.e. you would need to drop em from a certain altitude for them not to explode.
To be honoust, I've given up on the project and used most of what I created in PTIII. Like Shreck I see only benefit in having the model on the ground.
VonBeerhofen
As far as i remember, someone changed the behaviour of parachutists recently (Rotton?) which were dropped as ordnance. Both mods are vital for a reasonable display of Market Garden and some other operations.
Past fun addons have shown that the only problem with attaching a glider is that they will remain in a straight line with the aircraft it is attached to, so it's behaviour isn't very realistic when attached as ordnance, however just like the parachutists it does work and the glider can be released by means of the release bomb mechanism.
A glider mod isn't or shouldn't be based on trying to land it I think as it's even harder to have planes continue their route after you as a glider pilot were dropped. Focus should be on having missions where you as a tow plane come under attack of fighters.
Comparable missions would be food droppings in the winter of 43 and 44, or supply drops. The last thing we want is our parcels to blow up when touching the ground which I think shouldn't be too hard when editing the blast of the ordnance used (think Rotton did that allready too).
Not sure though if the community would be interested in doing bombdrops with 3DZ's which have food parcels on them as basically it's no different from dropping bombs, nor is releasing gliders.
A challenge could be if for instance a glider's landing impact would cause it to explode or not, i.e. you would need to drop em from a certain altitude for them not to explode.
To be honoust, I've given up on the project and used most of what I created in PTIII. Like Shreck I see only benefit in having the model on the ground.
VonBeerhofen
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Wudpecker
I think Col. Gibbon has an interesting alternative answer. Or at least a very good idea that could get us going in the right direction. In fact, Moggy came up with the very same idea (see glider thread #1).
As you pointed out, VB, if you fly the C-47, the glider has to be a rocket with a much-modified Flight Model or something similar.
I proposed to Col. Gibbon privately that the glider be a spare fuel tank that could be dropped. I don't think fuel tanks automatically explode when they hit the ground.
But the colonel had a better idea.
He reverses the order. He makes the tow plane a "rocket" hired-wired to your glider nose and stretched ahead of your glider--which is the main aircraft. I can really see the advantage to this. The "tow plane" will match whatever movements the glider makes, since it is attached ordnance.
It is fired off when your tow cable is "released" (the tow cable disappears, Gibbons says). With the proper flight model, it lazily pulls away as the "Gooney Bird C-47" or whatever tow plane you use.
Since YOU are the main plane in glider form, you can have a glider cockpit to fly. (Hello, Crashin' Jack).
The colonel doesn't explain too much more, but it's clear to me that the rocket release also must cut your glider "engine". You glide it in from there.
But.... the glider somehow must be powered to get you to the release point. Of course, you would like a take-off from the airfield if you could have one.
So....the glider becomes a C-47. It would not be the "real" C-47 tow plane, of course, since that's a C-47 look-alike rocket with its own FM.
Oh, no, you say. It's kind of stupid to be flying a C-47 flight model from a glider cockpit. Granted. But with some jiggery-pokery, could you start out in a look-alike "C-47 cockpit"---(which is really the glider, of course,) with an engine at your disposal?
If we can find a way to switch cockpits in mid-game (there is a virtual cockpit on F-8 ), you then pop into the glider cockpit on "cable release".
What do you think?
Yes, I know the two-cockpit idea is a little cocked-up.
I realize that I am walking on air here, with no visiible means of support other than Gibbon's and Moggy's good start.
But the Mighty Wizard and other EAW exe-perts might see a way it could be worked out.
As you pointed out, VB, if you fly the C-47, the glider has to be a rocket with a much-modified Flight Model or something similar.
I proposed to Col. Gibbon privately that the glider be a spare fuel tank that could be dropped. I don't think fuel tanks automatically explode when they hit the ground.
But the colonel had a better idea.
He reverses the order. He makes the tow plane a "rocket" hired-wired to your glider nose and stretched ahead of your glider--which is the main aircraft. I can really see the advantage to this. The "tow plane" will match whatever movements the glider makes, since it is attached ordnance.
It is fired off when your tow cable is "released" (the tow cable disappears, Gibbons says). With the proper flight model, it lazily pulls away as the "Gooney Bird C-47" or whatever tow plane you use.
Since YOU are the main plane in glider form, you can have a glider cockpit to fly. (Hello, Crashin' Jack).
The colonel doesn't explain too much more, but it's clear to me that the rocket release also must cut your glider "engine". You glide it in from there.
But.... the glider somehow must be powered to get you to the release point. Of course, you would like a take-off from the airfield if you could have one.
So....the glider becomes a C-47. It would not be the "real" C-47 tow plane, of course, since that's a C-47 look-alike rocket with its own FM.
Oh, no, you say. It's kind of stupid to be flying a C-47 flight model from a glider cockpit. Granted. But with some jiggery-pokery, could you start out in a look-alike "C-47 cockpit"---(which is really the glider, of course,) with an engine at your disposal?
If we can find a way to switch cockpits in mid-game (there is a virtual cockpit on F-8 ), you then pop into the glider cockpit on "cable release".
What do you think?
Yes, I know the two-cockpit idea is a little cocked-up.
I realize that I am walking on air here, with no visiible means of support other than Gibbon's and Moggy's good start.
But the Mighty Wizard and other EAW exe-perts might see a way it could be worked out.
okay,so.........
we'll need a cockpit for each(?)
at least we'll need one for the glider,got any good pics of ones cockpit?
I think someone posted some at some point,but I'll be damned if I recall where!
anyway must make the 3DZ have "see through" glass,and an externally visible cockpit/pilot combo
then,we need a "virtual cockpit"(a bit more 3DZ effort)
then we'll deal with the flying/launching thingo
BTW,as long as were at it,we do need a cockpit for the C-47 anyway
will post more as things get done....
S!.........Shreck
"Ask not what you can do for your country,ask,what has your country been doing to you!"
Thanks for that Moggy,now lets see whats i can do with it,first I think I'll find a good donor........Hmmmm,what springs to mind is either Mr.Johnsons B-24 cockpit,or...............?
any suggestions on what would be a good start from whats available?
S!..............Shreck
oh sh1t,0310AM,best get some sleep eh?
any suggestions on what would be a good start from whats available?
S!..............Shreck
oh sh1t,0310AM,best get some sleep eh?
"Ask not what you can do for your country,ask,what has your country been doing to you!"
-
Moggy
- Site Admin
- Posts: 4394
- Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 12:52 am
- Location: A slit trench near RAF Gravesend
- Contact:
Sleep first!
Perhaps get the controls from the B24 cockpit, and the glass perhaps from the he111 cockpit that's around somehere. Mix and match and bit of editing would probably give us something worth having.
Perhaps get the controls from the B24 cockpit, and the glass perhaps from the he111 cockpit that's around somehere. Mix and match and bit of editing would probably give us something worth having.
Moggy
www.mogggy.org
www.mogggy.org
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Pobs
- Chairman of the Code Committee
- Posts: 1223
- Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 2:02 pm
- Location: North Wales, UK
Hi Shreckie,
I would go with moggy on using the He111 as the start for all that glass
... and with the free standing control columns. Just delete the gunner elements and a bit of shifting of window frames and it would do quite well I think. I think you need to decide which specific mission you want with his one.
do you want the challenge of delivering the horsa to the appointed spot and dropping it to land accurately onto the target.....
or do you want to fly the glider down yourself and drop it onto the spot ?..
the two types of mission would each require one of the general approaches you have mentioned above with the horsa either as the ordinance or the main plane respectively... If you select the Horsa as the ordinance then perhaps you could swap the crater 3dz for the landed horsa model and as the 'bombs' hit the ground they would be replaced by 'landed' gliders .... at least you could see where you got them down relative to the target that way....
cheers,
Pobs
I would go with moggy on using the He111 as the start for all that glass
... and with the free standing control columns. Just delete the gunner elements and a bit of shifting of window frames and it would do quite well I think. I think you need to decide which specific mission you want with his one.
do you want the challenge of delivering the horsa to the appointed spot and dropping it to land accurately onto the target.....
or do you want to fly the glider down yourself and drop it onto the spot ?..
the two types of mission would each require one of the general approaches you have mentioned above with the horsa either as the ordinance or the main plane respectively... If you select the Horsa as the ordinance then perhaps you could swap the crater 3dz for the landed horsa model and as the 'bombs' hit the ground they would be replaced by 'landed' gliders .... at least you could see where you got them down relative to the target that way....
cheers,
Pobs
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Wudpecker
You guys have really jumped on this!
Hooray---it looks like a start.
Pobs' idea of a "bomb crater" glider is very clever and very practical.
Though I think with Col. Gibbon's help we can make this baby flyable. It would sure work with AI aircraft, though.
I have:
1) Jimmy Olsen's C-47. No cockpit, but two skins (above).
2) Crashin' Jack's sharpened instruments.
3) Col. Gibbon's WACO glider. No cockpit. I see Shreck beat me to it, the rascal. Looks like he's got it doped out very well.
4) Col. Gibbon's drop tank --possibly usable as a source for glider mod.
They are available at my gmail site. Just go to gmail.com
Sign-In: wudpecker
Password: wudpecker
All are under "C" for your convenience.
For some more flight yokes:
Hooray---it looks like a start.
Pobs' idea of a "bomb crater" glider is very clever and very practical.
Though I think with Col. Gibbon's help we can make this baby flyable. It would sure work with AI aircraft, though.
I have:
1) Jimmy Olsen's C-47. No cockpit, but two skins (above).
2) Crashin' Jack's sharpened instruments.
3) Col. Gibbon's WACO glider. No cockpit. I see Shreck beat me to it, the rascal.
Looks like he's got it doped out very well.
4) Col. Gibbon's drop tank --possibly usable as a source for glider mod.
They are available at my gmail site. Just go to gmail.com
Sign-In: wudpecker
Password: wudpecker
All are under "C" for your convenience.
For some more flight yokes:
-
Crashin' Jack
Very interesting idea, fellas....
Here is more food for thought. I agree with the idea of dropping it as an ordinance, that could be a lot of fun. As for being the pilot, it could be approached from a different way. Of course, a lot of interest is likely to lie in piloting the aircraft all the way from the runway on through to Normandy or for the Market Garden operation, but I think it could be used another way. The first thing to make this really exciting would be to create the proper environment. My first thought is of course Normandy. But, take it a step back. First, have all the gun emplacements, troops, etc in a heavily saturated area ala Moggy's Dunkirk. Fly a recon mission first as suggested in other recent threads, taking screen shots. Supply the gamer with a utility to easily create a modified in-mission map screen. THEN fly the glider mission as an instant action, with the target area preset with the nearest available target from the mission set up screen. When you get in game, cut your engine immediately -- or, fly straight and level if you need to fly a bit further before you cut your engine. Remember, you are probably flying the mission by yourself, and if you cheat at this, well, you might as well go back to other mods...
Anyway, now the challenge would be to land intact, gliding through massive amounts of flak and other ground fire, trying to find that field you see in the recon photo....damn, that sounds awesome to me!! It would be neat to fly all the way from the strip, but in reality I would probably Alt-N once airborne anyway.
As for the cockpit and instruments, that all looks fairly simple to me -- just don't use the Hurricane or Spitfire Mk I slots, as there is a still unidentified problem that prevents me from changing the gauges proprerly -- I have been working on those gauges for three months now, and am no closer to reralizing the solution...but ANY other slot works just fine!!
There, that's my nickel's worth!
Cheers!!!!
Here is more food for thought. I agree with the idea of dropping it as an ordinance, that could be a lot of fun. As for being the pilot, it could be approached from a different way. Of course, a lot of interest is likely to lie in piloting the aircraft all the way from the runway on through to Normandy or for the Market Garden operation, but I think it could be used another way. The first thing to make this really exciting would be to create the proper environment. My first thought is of course Normandy. But, take it a step back. First, have all the gun emplacements, troops, etc in a heavily saturated area ala Moggy's Dunkirk. Fly a recon mission first as suggested in other recent threads, taking screen shots. Supply the gamer with a utility to easily create a modified in-mission map screen. THEN fly the glider mission as an instant action, with the target area preset with the nearest available target from the mission set up screen. When you get in game, cut your engine immediately -- or, fly straight and level if you need to fly a bit further before you cut your engine. Remember, you are probably flying the mission by yourself, and if you cheat at this, well, you might as well go back to other mods...
Anyway, now the challenge would be to land intact, gliding through massive amounts of flak and other ground fire, trying to find that field you see in the recon photo....damn, that sounds awesome to me!! It would be neat to fly all the way from the strip, but in reality I would probably Alt-N once airborne anyway.
As for the cockpit and instruments, that all looks fairly simple to me -- just don't use the Hurricane or Spitfire Mk I slots, as there is a still unidentified problem that prevents me from changing the gauges proprerly -- I have been working on those gauges for three months now, and am no closer to reralizing the solution...but ANY other slot works just fine!!
There, that's my nickel's worth!
Cheers!!!!
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Wudpecker
Nice of you to join us, Crashin' Jack.
CJ's view of the glider mission sounds very exciting.
A whole new way of doing things, with new ideas strung together.
I think it could be an online mission as well, with plenty of gliders available for a coordinated flight.
Sounds like the first step is a flyable glider cockpit. Then a test of Col. Gibbon's and Moggy's "rocket" C-47 theory for the tow plane to give us a take-off.
I noticed the remark about the difficulty of doing a "virtual" cockpit.
Why couldn't one of the two cockpits be a C-47?
The two are linked together anyway, so flying one is flying the other until the tow cable is cut loose.
CJ's view of the glider mission sounds very exciting.
A whole new way of doing things, with new ideas strung together.
I think it could be an online mission as well, with plenty of gliders available for a coordinated flight.
Sounds like the first step is a flyable glider cockpit. Then a test of Col. Gibbon's and Moggy's "rocket" C-47 theory for the tow plane to give us a take-off.
I noticed the remark about the difficulty of doing a "virtual" cockpit.
Why couldn't one of the two cockpits be a C-47?
The two are linked together anyway, so flying one is flying the other until the tow cable is cut loose.
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Knegel
- Member of the Code Committee
- Posts: 4042
- Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:39 pm
- Location: Germany, Hannover
Hi,
like CJ i see good possibilitys while instand action.
A question i have at 1st: Are we able to controll the posiotion of the different squads right after gamestart or after Alt/N??
If yes, we could set a "bombrun" or "interdict" with C47´s as cover. This planes could be placed right in front of use after gamestart.
To keep the "escort" close we need to use Autopilto anyway.
If now both planes have the same performence, we maybe will stay right behind them until we reach the target, or until we get intercepted, what will be close to the target.
If now the glider get marked as "divebomber" the planes will dive down to the target. They will recover close to the ground and if the FM of the glider dont show any power in low altitude, ALL gliders cant climb anymore and have to land!!! Since its very difficult to creat a credible FM/DM where the planes dont explode after landing, a Airbase would be needed as target, cause planes dont explode if they land close to a airbase.
If its not possible to place the escort right in front of the gliders, we could use the Moggys "rocket trick" to simulate the towing plane, but i would vote for droptanks, cause we could command our wingis to drop them.
I just have another idea, that need to get tested. I know that we can give the droptanks(same like rockests and bombs) different weight factors.
Maybe its possible to give a "minus weight" or "minus drag", so that the droptanks (towing plane) 1. move smooth upward after we dropped them and 2. the balance of the glider FM need this extra lift to stay up and maybe to climb.
I think the last idea would be most good, cause we could maybe take off with the towing planes, but we couldnt stay up without it.
I will investigate a bit on this idea(its realy only this right now).
Greetings,
like CJ i see good possibilitys while instand action.
A question i have at 1st: Are we able to controll the posiotion of the different squads right after gamestart or after Alt/N??
If yes, we could set a "bombrun" or "interdict" with C47´s as cover. This planes could be placed right in front of use after gamestart.
To keep the "escort" close we need to use Autopilto anyway.
If now both planes have the same performence, we maybe will stay right behind them until we reach the target, or until we get intercepted, what will be close to the target.
If now the glider get marked as "divebomber" the planes will dive down to the target. They will recover close to the ground and if the FM of the glider dont show any power in low altitude, ALL gliders cant climb anymore and have to land!!! Since its very difficult to creat a credible FM/DM where the planes dont explode after landing, a Airbase would be needed as target, cause planes dont explode if they land close to a airbase.
If its not possible to place the escort right in front of the gliders, we could use the Moggys "rocket trick" to simulate the towing plane, but i would vote for droptanks, cause we could command our wingis to drop them.
I just have another idea, that need to get tested. I know that we can give the droptanks(same like rockests and bombs) different weight factors.
Maybe its possible to give a "minus weight" or "minus drag", so that the droptanks (towing plane) 1. move smooth upward after we dropped them and 2. the balance of the glider FM need this extra lift to stay up and maybe to climb.
I think the last idea would be most good, cause we could maybe take off with the towing planes, but we couldnt stay up without it.
I will investigate a bit on this idea(its realy only this right now).
Greetings,