It's too bad we don't have the "bow down" smiley on this thread, Ray.
You are absolutely right about being a good 3DZ artist.
That makes two at least, and we should not forget that just because you don't promote your own work much.
I can attest to that from "Silent Wings", and you have gotten better and better in several areas, including FM's.
I have praised your work before and I praise it again. There! I just said so.
Plus all the other things you mention. You did what I could not do-- coordinate and produce a full scenario. Which is one helluva lot of fun to fly, thanks also to the MadProf and your Mod Squad gang.
Back On Topic for a moment, some thanks are due for the code change to AutoClimb. Someone's ears are open to suggestions.
As to others, may I say it's poor sport to shoot down your own squad mates because they can't do what you do.
A 1.28c User suggestion....
Moderator: rotton50
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Knegel
- Member of the Code Committee
- Posts: 4042
- Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:39 pm
- Location: Germany, Hannover
Hey Ray,
did you test and suggest in time??
I would say yes, so why do you feel that i was talking to you??
Very often i wrote that contribution have more than one face, but for now in EVERY of the EAW1.28 releases most people "wasnt able" to beta test, but just a few day´s after the release the same people find bugs and come with other suggestions.
Of course beta testing is not as much fun as playing the ready game, but afaik the main goal of the code group is the EAW.exe development and if someone did join this group and show that there there is time to create other addons than EAW.exe related addons, but no time for at least testing the beta exe´s, then i wonder why someone is in this group.
If there is no time, there is no time, but on one hand the people want a good exe released, they have abvious valid suggestions, on the other hand noone is doing anything. But afterward they run around and say, "you want to decide all alone", "why you get angry, i just made a nice suggestion", "i made a suggestion, but i get ignored" etc.
I feel like the old Granny, bringing out the rubbish, while some sit in the armchair, just making suggestions how the work can be done better.
Greetings,
Knegel
did you test and suggest in time??
I would say yes, so why do you feel that i was talking to you??
Very often i wrote that contribution have more than one face, but for now in EVERY of the EAW1.28 releases most people "wasnt able" to beta test, but just a few day´s after the release the same people find bugs and come with other suggestions.
Of course beta testing is not as much fun as playing the ready game, but afaik the main goal of the code group is the EAW.exe development and if someone did join this group and show that there there is time to create other addons than EAW.exe related addons, but no time for at least testing the beta exe´s, then i wonder why someone is in this group.
If there is no time, there is no time, but on one hand the people want a good exe released, they have abvious valid suggestions, on the other hand noone is doing anything. But afterward they run around and say, "you want to decide all alone", "why you get angry, i just made a nice suggestion", "i made a suggestion, but i get ignored" etc.
I feel like the old Granny, bringing out the rubbish, while some sit in the armchair, just making suggestions how the work can be done better.
Greetings,
Knegel
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Knegel
- Member of the Code Committee
- Posts: 4042
- Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:39 pm
- Location: Germany, Hannover
Wudy,
squadmates take off with me, fight with me as good as they can, they dont come just after the squad landed to tell this or that could have been done better. They also dont take off just before the rest of the squad already comes back from the fight to land, while no target is in sight, to land proudly with them.
Greetings,
Knegel
squadmates take off with me, fight with me as good as they can, they dont come just after the squad landed to tell this or that could have been done better. They also dont take off just before the rest of the squad already comes back from the fight to land, while no target is in sight, to land proudly with them.
Greetings,
Knegel
I do not think that anyone can argue aginst the purpose of the code development group is to develop code and release improved exes.
Therefore it is implied that members not involved in coding need to test beta versions, and keep up to date with the progress.
If people want to work on other aspects, such as the creation of objects or whole scenarios, that is fine by me, but they still need to keep up to date, even if it is limited to trying out new features or new systems.
These post-release issues should never have happened. There are comments in this thread that indicate an extremely poor knowledge level regarding the 1.28C exe.
If people cannot take the trouble to keep up to date, then how can they be serving this group?
Obviously if RL is limiting participation temporarily, then we all understand, and have no problem with it.
Seriously, how many members were consistently involved in testing in the time between the posting of the first 1.28C version for testing (many months ago) and the release?
Jel
Therefore it is implied that members not involved in coding need to test beta versions, and keep up to date with the progress.
If people want to work on other aspects, such as the creation of objects or whole scenarios, that is fine by me, but they still need to keep up to date, even if it is limited to trying out new features or new systems.
These post-release issues should never have happened. There are comments in this thread that indicate an extremely poor knowledge level regarding the 1.28C exe.
If people cannot take the trouble to keep up to date, then how can they be serving this group?
Obviously if RL is limiting participation temporarily, then we all understand, and have no problem with it.
Seriously, how many members were consistently involved in testing in the time between the posting of the first 1.28C version for testing (many months ago) and the release?
Jel-
Col. Gibbon
- Member of the Code Committee
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Hi Ray.
Please don't take me wrong. When I wrote that quote, which Ralf made in a post on another forum, I was trying to make the point about contributions. You too contribute in a lot of different areas, but not in coding the exe, which seems to have become a mute point with Ralf. It seems if you don't code, you don't contribute, and that's what I was getting at.
Please don't take me wrong. When I wrote that quote, which Ralf made in a post on another forum, I was trying to make the point about contributions. You too contribute in a lot of different areas, but not in coding the exe, which seems to have become a mute point with Ralf. It seems if you don't code, you don't contribute, and that's what I was getting at.
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Knegel
- Member of the Code Committee
- Posts: 4042
- Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:39 pm
- Location: Germany, Hannover
Are you kidding??
Just in one of my last posts i wrote this:
Nowhere and never i wrote that coding is the only way of contribution, i wrote exact in the oposide direction.
You guys should start to read what others write, before creating a new "myth".
We are very happy with the ModSquad´s(Ray/MadProf) and also Per`s contribution in the EAW1.28c development and we told so many times.
They tested and did keep up most of the time, although they did develop their setups alongside. Out of this many good suggestions came and also many bugs was found that we could erase.
Who else did test in the last half year and specialy in the last two month??
There was almost no feedback from anyone else, but now, just when the exe got released the people get out of their caves, have time to play and to make suggestions??
I bet still noone did test the seasonal switch, although there was a easy usable test setup available for more than a month.
Just in one of my last posts i wrote this:
Knegel wrote:Very often i wrote that contribution have more than one face, but for now in EVERY of the EAW1.28 releases most people "wasnt able" to beta test, but just a few day´s after the release the same people find bugs and come with other suggestions.
Nowhere and never i wrote that coding is the only way of contribution, i wrote exact in the oposide direction.
You guys should start to read what others write, before creating a new "myth".
We are very happy with the ModSquad´s(Ray/MadProf) and also Per`s contribution in the EAW1.28c development and we told so many times.
They tested and did keep up most of the time, although they did develop their setups alongside. Out of this many good suggestions came and also many bugs was found that we could erase.
Who else did test in the last half year and specialy in the last two month??
There was almost no feedback from anyone else, but now, just when the exe got released the people get out of their caves, have time to play and to make suggestions??
I bet still noone did test the seasonal switch, although there was a easy usable test setup available for more than a month.
Last edited by Knegel on Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Col. Gibbon
- Member of the Code Committee
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- Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:34 am
- Location: Fleet Hampshire UK
- Contact:
Hi Tony.
I said I would test the release version, because I could not keep up with the 3 or more new EXE's which Ralf was churning out. I spend about 5 hours a day on EAW daily, currently rebuilding the HR P-40 for Ade, and it's very difficult to drop a project and spend hours testing and exe, which by the time I'd have posted a report is obsolete.
That's why I gave up testing and concentrated on 3dz work.
Maybe you should have posted a Beta version on the forum, before making a final release, which would have avoided the fixes and further patch.
Maybe we learn this lesson and work together a bit more closely as we go toward 1.3.
Anyway back to my bathroom repairs.
I said I would test the release version, because I could not keep up with the 3 or more new EXE's which Ralf was churning out. I spend about 5 hours a day on EAW daily, currently rebuilding the HR P-40 for Ade, and it's very difficult to drop a project and spend hours testing and exe, which by the time I'd have posted a report is obsolete.
That's why I gave up testing and concentrated on 3dz work.
Maybe you should have posted a Beta version on the forum, before making a final release, which would have avoided the fixes and further patch.
Maybe we learn this lesson and work together a bit more closely as we go toward 1.3.
Anyway back to my bathroom repairs.
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Knegel
- Member of the Code Committee
- Posts: 4042
- Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:39 pm
- Location: Germany, Hannover
Noone needed to test always the absolut last EAW.exe and actually even Per or the ModSquad was often 1-5 versions behind, nevertheless bugs or other shortcommings was found and could be corrected.
In most cases the steps between each exe was so smal, the normal user would need a while to find a different between the versions, but for the tester who needed the changings(Modquad or Per) to test it with their setup, the update was needed.
The high sequence of exe´s is absolut normal when things get developed by one and tested by someone else, the update procedure in most cases was just to d/l a 568kb EAW.exe and replace the old with it.
If thats to much, iam sorry, then imho there is a bad problem with the motivation.
If the members are not motivated enough to download a EAW.exe and replace the last with it, this group is superfluous as Code Group.
The "AutoClimb" for exaple worked like it did since EAW1.2b. CJ´s files that got forgotten already got forgotten more than 1 month before the release.
Many eye´s see more.
We had the same discussion like we have now at the end and after every EAW1.28+ release.
In most cases the steps between each exe was so smal, the normal user would need a while to find a different between the versions, but for the tester who needed the changings(Modquad or Per) to test it with their setup, the update was needed.
The high sequence of exe´s is absolut normal when things get developed by one and tested by someone else, the update procedure in most cases was just to d/l a 568kb EAW.exe and replace the old with it.
If thats to much, iam sorry, then imho there is a bad problem with the motivation.
If the members are not motivated enough to download a EAW.exe and replace the last with it, this group is superfluous as Code Group.
The "AutoClimb" for exaple worked like it did since EAW1.2b. CJ´s files that got forgotten already got forgotten more than 1 month before the release.
Many eye´s see more.
We had the same discussion like we have now at the end and after every EAW1.28+ release.
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Col. Gibbon
- Member of the Code Committee
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- Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:34 am
- Location: Fleet Hampshire UK
- Contact:
Hi Ralf.
We all have a life outside EAW, and this imposes time restraints on all of us. That has an influence on the way we spend time on EAW, and my motivation, like yours are guided by these influences. You find escape in coding, as you see it as fun. I find escape in making models, and this is something I like to do.
Testing the exe versions, seemed to be going on with a few people, so I saw no need to test, but as soon as the release candidate was up, I got a copy and started running it. But, as it turned out, there was no time given to test the release, so if I had found something, it would have been after the event.
I was stunned, the next morning to find the EXE ha been released, but OK, you and Tony must have felt, it was good to go, which with the benefit of hind sight, should have been a Beta. But, OK, what's done is done, and there is no point spilling blood over it now.
All I will say, let's spend a bit more time testing the release candidate before going public. I only had time to run the game twice, before it was released.
We all have a life outside EAW, and this imposes time restraints on all of us. That has an influence on the way we spend time on EAW, and my motivation, like yours are guided by these influences. You find escape in coding, as you see it as fun. I find escape in making models, and this is something I like to do.
Testing the exe versions, seemed to be going on with a few people, so I saw no need to test, but as soon as the release candidate was up, I got a copy and started running it. But, as it turned out, there was no time given to test the release, so if I had found something, it would have been after the event.
I was stunned, the next morning to find the EXE ha been released, but OK, you and Tony must have felt, it was good to go, which with the benefit of hind sight, should have been a Beta. But, OK, what's done is done, and there is no point spilling blood over it now.
All I will say, let's spend a bit more time testing the release candidate before going public. I only had time to run the game twice, before it was released.
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Skylark
Hi Guys,
I'm going to way into this topic once again.....for the last time
Are not all things EAW ie: skins, mods, addons and exes.
considered to be a 'work-in-progress'?
That anything, which is released to the community, can be modified,
if this modification is warranted and improves that which was released?
Also, are not these items, developed for the benefit of everyone,
be they either EAW users and/or community members?
Do not all community members have the opportunity, as members of SEAWC and for that matter, as EAW users,
to make 'suggestions' of possible enhancements to said release, regardless of the timing?
Since the release of the original 1.28 exe hasn't the evolutionary process been that the EAW Membership D/L the released,
use it and offer 'suggestions' after they've played it for a while?
Aren't submitted 'observations/suggestions' from users (read fresh eyes) deemed valid and appreciated by developers after any release?
Aren't offered 'suggestions' sought after by the 'developer' and/or 'group'
and if there is a collective consensus amongst users and developers
that this 'suggestion' has merit. The 'suggested' enhancement
could be modified and appear in the next release?
Isn't this how this EAW Community works?
Isn't this how a 'work-in-progress' process operates and gets improved?
One more thing....
Shouldn't the 'developer' and/or 'group' be more open and receptive
to input from all those EAW players, regardless of their involment
or the timing of their 'suggestion'.
Isn't a 'good idea' worthy of consideration?
Isn't this how EAW's growth is fostered and it's energetic life rejuvenated?
Cheers mates
David
I'm going to way into this topic once again.....for the last time
Are not all things EAW ie: skins, mods, addons and exes.
considered to be a 'work-in-progress'?
That anything, which is released to the community, can be modified,
if this modification is warranted and improves that which was released?
Also, are not these items, developed for the benefit of everyone,
be they either EAW users and/or community members?
Do not all community members have the opportunity, as members of SEAWC and for that matter, as EAW users,
to make 'suggestions' of possible enhancements to said release, regardless of the timing?
Since the release of the original 1.28 exe hasn't the evolutionary process been that the EAW Membership D/L the released,
use it and offer 'suggestions' after they've played it for a while?
Aren't submitted 'observations/suggestions' from users (read fresh eyes) deemed valid and appreciated by developers after any release?
Aren't offered 'suggestions' sought after by the 'developer' and/or 'group'
and if there is a collective consensus amongst users and developers
that this 'suggestion' has merit. The 'suggested' enhancement
could be modified and appear in the next release?
Isn't this how this EAW Community works?
Isn't this how a 'work-in-progress' process operates and gets improved?
One more thing....
Shouldn't the 'developer' and/or 'group' be more open and receptive
to input from all those EAW players, regardless of their involment
or the timing of their 'suggestion'.
Isn't a 'good idea' worthy of consideration?
Isn't this how EAW's growth is fostered and it's energetic life rejuvenated?
Cheers mates
David
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Knegel
- Member of the Code Committee
- Posts: 4042
- Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:39 pm
- Location: Germany, Hannover
Skylark wrote:Shouldn't the 'developer' and/or 'group' be more open and receptive
to input from all those EAW players, regardless of their involment
or the timing of their 'suggestion'.
Isn't a 'good idea' worthy of consideration?
Isn't this how EAW's growth is fostered and it's energetic life rejuvenated?
Cheers mates
David
Thats a joke isnt it??
This time we almost got more feedback and suggestions for people outside of this group than from so called group members.
We always listen to suggestions, though of course we cant implement all and everything.
Like Tony i leave this pseudo group, then i dont need to be disappointed.
Now you can have the lose cooperation, it you want.
Greetings,
Knegel
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RAF_Roy
- Flight Sergeant
- Posts: 1015
- Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 9:01 pm
- Location: So. California , USA
- Contact:
Look maybe everyone cool down a bit and take a brake. You are all tired from the massive work.
I (had) odds with Ralf and Jel and others and so forth when I got overworked back in the 1.28 day and know the whole code situation is not easy.
I haven't even tried to code since then and have not the luxury and also the process is flawed because you don't really have a good process.
The code development is not going to work easily when 2 or 3 people control the programming and do all, as they also program what they are working on.
The problem is also the game features ideas are spiraling up at as a frantic rate as the programming, so by the time of a release so many new ideas and or bugs are breaking through when they should be mostly over.
I have to warn you guys need a more formal process soon to pace developments (and lack of them)
For example even if someone does start coding that does not simplify you work Ralf (and Jel), if you take it upon yourself to completely go over all the code which for now, in a way you must or someone as skilled or greater check it like brit44, sybod etc must since we are not C experts, but there also lays the problem if you both heavily develope code and oversee all code you are going to working way long hours like a real lead programmer.. you see?
As to the Contributions here rotton50 I don't think anyone will ever dispute your work is enormous and among the greats of EAW contributions.
As well the Col and so many more here.
so please consider if anyone's pissed now o.k. understandable.. just let it cool off and hopefully rework the issues in the future.
Myself I might make it through the winter... seriously..
and do some work next year.But Frankly there are almost too many add-ons now to catch up to, to do scenarios anymore.
I (had) odds with Ralf and Jel and others and so forth when I got overworked back in the 1.28 day and know the whole code situation is not easy.
I haven't even tried to code since then and have not the luxury and also the process is flawed because you don't really have a good process.
The code development is not going to work easily when 2 or 3 people control the programming and do all, as they also program what they are working on.
The problem is also the game features ideas are spiraling up at as a frantic rate as the programming, so by the time of a release so many new ideas and or bugs are breaking through when they should be mostly over.
I have to warn you guys need a more formal process soon to pace developments (and lack of them)
For example even if someone does start coding that does not simplify you work Ralf (and Jel), if you take it upon yourself to completely go over all the code which for now, in a way you must or someone as skilled or greater check it like brit44, sybod etc must since we are not C experts, but there also lays the problem if you both heavily develope code and oversee all code you are going to working way long hours like a real lead programmer.. you see?
As to the Contributions here rotton50 I don't think anyone will ever dispute your work is enormous and among the greats of EAW contributions.
As well the Col and so many more here.
so please consider if anyone's pissed now o.k. understandable.. just let it cool off and hopefully rework the issues in the future.
Myself I might make it through the winter...
seriously..
and do some work next year.But Frankly there are almost too many add-ons now to catch up to, to do scenarios anymore.
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Moggy
- Site Admin
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- Location: A slit trench near RAF Gravesend
- Contact:
But Frankly there are almost too many add-ons now to catch up to, to do scenarios anymore.
I expect to come back to EAW next year almost as a new sim. I hope that will be exciting.
Moggy
www.mogggy.org
www.mogggy.org